Tomorrow’s Europe
October 25, 2007
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There is a general feeling of relief in the EU-institutions after the decision on a new treaty – which will of course be named the Lisbon Treaty since it will be signed there in mid-December. I have the impression that most European citizens prefer to discuss the policies, the content, rather than the legal framework. And, when asked, they have clear views on what they would like the EU to focus on: energy/climate change, social issues and Europe’s role in the world. At least that’s what has come out of the citizens’ consultations that the Commission supported.
Newsnight on BBC2 had an interesting piece last Friday 19 October. It was coverage of the Tomorrow’s Europe event which I have referred to several times here. One British woman described it as a “life-changing experience”. At the time of writing it can still be viewed on the BBC website.
The results of the deliberative poll have now been published and you can find them here. I was interested to see the comments from people who took part and of course to read some of the conclusions following the weekend of intensive discussion, such as:
- The support for “raising the retirement age” went up from 26% to 40%. And support for “making it attractive to work longer before retiring” went from 57% to 70%.
- Support for an EU role in energy supply increased from 52% to 59% and support for an EU role in diplomatic relations increased from 55% to 63%.
- The percentage agreeing that “additional countries that meet all the political and economic conditions for membership should be admitted to the EU” decreased from 65% to 60%. In the case of Turkey, support for EU admission if it met all the conditions fell from 55% to 45% and in the case of the Ukraine, it fell from 69% to 55%.
- Before deliberation, people from the ‘new’ member states answered 9 knowledge questions with an average level correct of 37%. After deliberation their average level correct was 53%. People from ‘old’ member states went from 40% to 56% correct). Topics included the EU budget, how members of the Parliament are elected, the role of the EU in unemployment benefits and how EU foreign aid compares with US foreign aid.
Under 6 Plan D projects during 2007, thousands of people from all Member States and all walks of life took part in cross-border participatory democracy projects. In December, 250 of them will come to Brussels, form a single set of conclusions on the main concerns which have emerged and put their conclusions and demands to a panel of decision-makers. (One of whom will be me). Tomorrow’s Europe is one of them, you can check out the others below:
European Citizens’ Consultations
Speak Up Europe
Our Europe-Our Debate-Our Contribution
Radio Web Europe
Our Message to Europe
I will certainly come back to this topic. And if you have been involved in any of these projects I would love to hear from you.
Young people can make a huge difference in politics! Look at the results of the Polish general election on Sunday. It was a very impressive turnout of young voters which was decisive. And now the new Polish PM Donald Tusk declares “a return to the heart of Europe”.
I went to my son’s school the other night for a parents meeting. His very nice teacher told us about homework, “B-tests”, discipline, presence and marks… On my way home I was thinking about how lucky I and my husband are, having two sons who never complained about going to school! When I was 14 I complained a lot …
Having children makes you face your own shortcomings and I constantly think about how to give better help and support to my boys.
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October 25th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Yes, well let me know when we can get involved Margot, and we we give input.
Meantime dont forget to tell me when you can attend one of MY events.
October 25th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
“I have the impression that most European citizens prefer to discuss the policies, the content, rather than the legal framework”.
Yes, and some “citizens” would like to know what legal framework permits the broad transfer of sovereign power to Brussels without a vote.
We’d like to know how the Commission can impose laws on people when Commission members have not been elected.
What do the people say about the Constitution? You have your opinion polls, but why not put it to a vote? Voting is, after all, recognised as a good way to legitimate power throughout the western world.
Naturally, a vote on the Constitution terrifies Brussels. They know what the result would be. Best not let democracy interfere with your utopian dreams, eh?
Regards,
DVH
October 25th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
I have a poll for you margot,
Please answer yes or no.
1. Would you like to live in a state, where pensions are so badly mismanaged, you will probably have to work up until you die. The politicians will dress this up with clever language, like ‘making it attractive’ for you to work until your deathbed. (Yes/No)
2. Would you like to live in a state, where democracy is being wiped out, and is replaced by an elite class who are building the structure how they want it, not how its needed or desired by the population. (Yes/No)
3. Would you like to live in a state, where paramilitary, police, state, are being given massive, unmonitored and uncontrolled access to the citizen, including finger printing children, collecting innocent people’s DNA, monitoring without limitation their communications, mail, email, internet access, blogging, and private information, and where immigration, crime, terrorism, are being used as the levers to further the power of the state on a daily basis. (Yes/No)
4. Would you like to live in a state, where citizens who live inside the state have a lower standing than immigrants from outside, where standards of healthcare, schooling, social services, transport and the very quality of life falls day by day, week by week, yet you will be bombarded by propaganda saying ‘its never been better’ and that any sums produced only ever state one side of the argument (The positive side). (Yes/No)
5. Would you like to live in a state, where smokers, fat people, outspoken people, or individuals face ongoing persecution, up to and including being put in prison, fined, having access to heathcare or social care reduced or blocked, and attacks upon their right to a private life. (Yes/No)
6. Would you like to live in a state where there is mass immigration, while at the same time illogical green government, that patently leads to a falling standard of living for every single member of society, except the rich elite, rising taxes for the people, Limitation of travel of goods, services and people (its coming, counter to the original idea off free movememnt of people and goods) and worsening conditions, limits, red tape. (Yes/No)
7. Do you wish to live in a state that is being Islamified. (Yes/No).
October 25th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Let’s hope that the Lisbon Treaty - if ratified (and it’s still a big ‘if’) - is as successful as the Lisbob Agenda.
Actually, how come we don’t hear much about this fantastical pipe dream? Even on the Europa website it’s hard to find up to date information. Perhaps someone fromn the Commission can remind us of its objectives and inform us how successful it has been in achieving them.
October 25th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
I had the pleasure to be working at the Deliberative Poll Tomorrow’s Europe and I was quite amazed by the near total absence of any representative from the European Commission. As you were present at the launch of the event together with Giuliano Amato , Valrey Giscard D’Estaing and other eminent personality, I think you could have given a stronger message to citizens by participating at this event and by taking part to the debates within the pleanry sessions. Some accuse , uncorrectly to my view, the Commission of doing marketing communication rahter than participative democracy. The absence of some Commission representatives has just shown that they might be right???
Best Regards,
Giovanni
October 25th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
L.S.,
@Anonymous: That has to be some kind of record. I would not accept the premise on any of your seven questions!
October 25th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Dear “Anonymous”
what you are orchestrating, i mean the repetions of “(yes/nos)”
is just a kind of unnecessary and over worrisome which i believe
amounts to nothing but a total mind of intolerance. To some extent
you may be right but not absolutely.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
There will be meetings going on in London this weekend about Britian, the Prime Minister and the EU.Send your “Tommorrows Europe to that.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:08 am
Question 1 : During your “deliberative poll”, were you asking questions in English ? Or did you made the effort to translate them in the other languages of the Union ?
Question 2 : You are talking about “participatory democracy projects” in the Union. I have one suggestion : A poll from The Time shows that in in the five largest European countries (Britain, France, Italy, Spain and Germany), wide majorities of citizens want to participate to democratic project called a referendum. About your wonderfull Lisbon treaty.
And guess what ? I am sure that you, Margot, will personnaly do everything you can in order to avoid this “participatory democracy project”.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:03 am
I liked yesterday’s Europe better!
The question now is - do we give up our countries or do we fight? The problem with this slow-motion coup is that it lacks the clear reference points, and the obvious targets, of a physical invasion but it is an invasion non-the-less… My own view is that we don’t need to wait for ratification to say this is a step too far…
October 26th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Laurent K,
I can answer you first question!
Tomorrow’s Europe deliberative poll was entirely translated in 21 languages. The deliberation, during 3 days at the European Parliament, has been interpreted in the 21 official working languages of the EU. We wanted to involve “normal” citizens from all the EU, and most of them don’t speak more than their own language. This was one of our prerequisite in order to have a quality deliberation and a process scientifically correct. As you can see, the website is also available in these 21 languages, even if the main part of it is only in English (but we did our best with our small team!).
This was a huge challenge actually, as you can imagine… But it worked quite well!
best regards
October 26th, 2007 at 11:06 am
I and others are not asked if we accept the polls and propaganda dear fellow. You’re lucky I even asked, given the EU and its ‘elite’ don’t believe in referendums, democracy, but do believe in dubious polls and propaganda to further their very narrow view. By the way, the questions are all valid, real, So what is your objection?
Could it be that the questions are politically incorrect, but factual, and you can’t cope with it? Are we to limit discussion to what you can cope with, and narrow down discussion to the limited confines of the politically correct desert?
# martinned Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
L.S.,
@Anonymous: That has to be some kind of record. I would not accept the premise on any of your seven questions!
October 26th, 2007 at 11:24 am
This “deliberative poll” sounds a wee bit too much like “normal polls are against us, so we have to brainwash the participants before we poll them”.
The process of “deliberative polling” includes two critical sections: The Recruitment phase and the Briefing phase. In the first you can easily weed out the informed people, and in the second, you can feed the rest any bull as “impartial briefing”.
Hey, it is amazing that anyone related to Brussels can even SPELL “impartial briefing”. The briefing was propably as “impartial” as the new treaty is “democratic”…
Do you feel democratic today? If yes, then let us people vote on the treaty!
October 26th, 2007 at 11:28 am
Laurent K - “I am sure that you, Margot, will personnaly do everything you can in order to avoid this “participatory democracy project”.
As Margot has said before, neither she nor anyone else in the European Commission has any power to tell Member States how to ratify a Treaty.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Giovanni - “I had the pleasure to be working at the Deliberative Poll Tomorrow’s Europe and I was quite amazed by the near total absence of any representative from the European Commission. As you were present at the launch of the event together with Giuliano Amato , Valrey Giscard D’Estaing and other eminent personality, I think you could have given a stronger message to citizens by participating at this event and by taking part to the debates within the pleanry sessions.”
As you say, Margot took part in the launch of Tomorrow’s Europe. She was not able to attend the second event or the final press conference due to other commitments (including the IGC). She did however follow the proceedings closely as is obvious from her posts on the subject, and she will be at the event on 7 December.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:43 am
Christian Treczoks - “The process of “deliberative polling” includes two critical sections: The Recruitment phase and the Briefing phase. In the first you can easily weed out the informed people, and in the second, you can feed the rest any bull as “impartial briefing”.”
The Commission did not organise the poll. If Mathieu Collet is still reading perhaps he can explain the process. Or you could read the information on their website. Interesting that people were less enthusiastic about Enlargement after deliberation - how does that fit with the ‘brainwashing’ theory? Also if you watch the Newsnight clip you’ll see at least one person saying they he was eurosceptic when he went in and more eurosceptic when he came out.
October 27th, 2007 at 10:47 am
Max - you ask where the Lisbon Agenda has disappeared to. It’s now called the strategy for Growth & Jobs and you can find the latest here:
http://ec.europa.eu/growthandjobs/index_en.htm
October 27th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
Dear Moderator,
Thanks for the link. The latest report is nearly a year old (December 2006) and seems to include a lot of ’shifting of goalposts’. From what I can ascertain, however, neither of the newly set 2005 ‘headline’ targets [R&D investment to 3%; employment to 70%)] targets is likely to be met by 2010. Perhaps someone can correct me here.
As for the EU ‘becoming the most competitive knowledge-based economy in the world by 2010′, what do you (and others) think?
October 29th, 2007 at 12:16 am
Beware of this Herr Tusk. Donald is no Polish name like Marek. Though one Terrible Twin down you have another American Puppet. Anyway Merkel deserves praise.
October 29th, 2007 at 11:13 am
With this Blue Card tomorrow’s EU will have Indians running our IT sector. Training is more dear than cheap imports. Capitalism. Margot use your brain. Structural unemployment is the problem and retraining the cure.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:21 am
Dear Moderator,
Of course I read the information on their website. The hogwash they are claiming was the main reason to doubt the usefulness of this “deliberate poll” in the first place. Basically, “unbiased information” simply DOES NOT EXIST on political topics.
As for those who grew more sceptic on the EU during this charade - Congratulations. Seeing a trap spun by professional opinion makers when you are right in it is a formidable achievement.
It is just another way to get the poll results you are paying for. I would not mind if you would stop buying opinions with our money.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:29 am
The Moderator told us:
“As Margot has said before, neither she nor anyone else in the European Commission has any power to tell Member States how to ratify a Treaty.”
Of course, the treaty could have sported a passus of enactment like “This treaty will only be enacted after a majority in simultaneous referendums held in the member states” (You get the gist, let the lawyers handle the appropriate legal gibberish for this).
It is just that those who wrote the treaty simply did not WANT the souvereign citizens to have a saying in the loss of their rights.
October 30th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Is it true when Bush said he would reduce global warming, maybe he meant by making it too expensive to use oil? I for one has just given up my car it is just too expensive. Can I have some of my money which is given to Poland back please, most of it is given to Polish farmers to purchash new tractores!
Me thinks he deserves the Nobel Peace Prize!
October 30th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Hej
Söndag den 4:e november annordnas “En söndag för Burma” på Kägelbanan i Stockholm. Burmesiska och svenska artister kommer att uppträda tillsammans för att hedra och stötta det burmesiska folket och för att samla in pengar till Solidaritetsfonden - Burma.
Besök våra sida: http://sondagforburma.blogspot.com
Stöd oss genom att sprida det vidare!
Catti Ullström
October 30th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Valéry Giscard d’Estaing has made the following statement:-
In an open letter to the French newspaper Le Monde, Mr D’Estaing sought to clarify his view on the differences - if any - between two treaties.
“Looking at the content,” he wrote “the result is that the institutional proposals of the constitutional treaty….are found complete in the Lisbon Treaty, only in a different order and inserted in former treaties..”
He made clear that the purpose of the rewritten Treaty (now called the Lisbon Treaty) was to make people think the new version did not merit being put to the people in referendums.
“Above all, it is to avoid having referendums thanks to the fact that the articles are spread out and constitutional vocabulary has been removed,” he added.
Yet another critical overview showing the deep level corruption and anti democratic operations taking place at the EU.
Dear Margot, it is time you and your fellow commissioners resigned. You cannot post about ‘Democracy’ while working behind the scenes to circumvent and destroy it, or support those efforts in any way. And clearly, You and the Commission back this work.
October 31st, 2007 at 10:52 am
Speaking of Nobel Prize I am not sure Gore deserves one. It was more like the selection committee sending a message to Herr Bush. But all in vain and wishful Nordic thinking. Bush listens to Exxon Mobil.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Anonymous @ 30..10 Margot is no democrat but a career politician and her blog is newspeak. From every angle the Treaty and Constitution. EU democracy means Backdoor Diplomacy and no mandate from the people. French elitism.
October 31st, 2007 at 6:26 pm
The EEC/EC/EU was supposed to be about free trade. How on earth did this pandora’s box of foreign policy, political representation, social policy?
“I have the impression … ” just how clueless can a person be with only one head? We want a Europe that preserves and respects our national interests, not a distant conclave of politicians with no idea of the realities of life and a hidden agenda of forcing a ‘one size fits all’ approach on all of us. We want less Europe, not more, fewer politicians, not more, and more than anything politicians who represent our views instead of organizing “deliberative polls” at our expense and then using the these pseudo-scientific practices to justify our acceptance of more things we neither need or want.
October 31st, 2007 at 9:53 pm
Why not publish the text of the new proposed treaty??? I have tried very long to find it - but so far just got very vague information on the text as being too complicated to read for an ordinary citizen, since it is constructed as a series of changes to existing treaty texts. It looks like someone wants to hide something, does it not? Cosmetic changes as compared to the “Constitution” might conceal the kind of consensus on inscribing Neo-liberal dogmas into the new treaty? It is urgent to announce the text in a manner which allows everyone to look at it!
November 1st, 2007 at 2:43 am
The weight of reasoned (if occasionally blowhard) opposition to the Reform Treaty on this and other threads here is such that a proper response by Margot really is merited. So come on, Margot … don’t be like all those lying political animals who have finessed their wet-dream constititon into being. That’s beneath you. Show some probity and courage, and address the extremely grave and damaging charge that Brussels has acted completely undemocratically, and the Treaty will have no moral legitimacy as a result.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:46 am
Simon North what makes you assume that others in the EU want just a free market? A stronger voice demands closer political integration. Were it not for this those Bulgarian nurses would still be in a Libyan jail. If the Brits want none of this vote English Democrats to leave the EU and probably become an extension of India. Your vote. The EU is no Westminister clone. I admit it is a rough diamond.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:12 am
Simon FYI we are in the era of juggernauts with the rise of China and soon India. No one listens to Norway or Iceland. Clout matters and so we need closer integration. Call it whatever but only the EU has shown leadership on issues like the environment. A free market means a weak EU that none will pay attention to.
November 1st, 2007 at 5:20 pm
An EU neo-state dictator lecturing the masses about democracy, whatever next?
November 3rd, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Mathieu!
Why claim that that your language translation services work well, although they do not? The word dishonesty comes to mind. You use the word “challenge”, but it seems you do not sincerely mean it.
When it comes to sincerity I recommend -
http://_www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YHALnLV9XU
November 5th, 2007 at 6:21 am
Another lame logo, another patronising pseudo-attempt at ‘consultation’. Change the record Margot.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:33 am
Jens Cavallin - the text of the Treaty is on the Council website:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/cg00001re01en.pdf
November 5th, 2007 at 11:51 am
Inferior says, of the EU, “I admit it is a rough diamond.”
Richard North (http://www.eureferendum.blogspot.com) says (and, to quote Mrs Proudie, I agree with him), “This is the trouble with these Eurofantasists. They always talk up what they think to be the good points, and (attempt to) pre-empt criticism of their beloved construct by agreeing that it needs “reform”. But while the greater powers and controls flow upwards to Brussels, like Godot, the “reforms” never seem to arrive.”
November 5th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Guessedworker your problem is not Margot but the tribal Scottish Raj at Westminister. Ask Salmond how he routed NuLabour in Sweatieland. Also use Chav Lingo to rally your troops not Wordsworth. Your kin are ready for battle. BTW most North Sea oil is in English waters.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Crapaud I am a supreme realist. The real fantatists are you and North who think the EU can be a clone of Westminister. Democracy is evolutionary. European Democracy is not based on English Common Law. For the Common Good certain state rights have to yield. Meanwhile Marcela’s kin are running riot in Italia. Another fulfilled prophecy. Law and order is the bane of Romania. Turkey?
November 5th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Dear Margot,
Let me first introduce myself. Because of my work, I am closely following environmental European legislation and policies for some years now (for the military). An uneasy job, seeing the EU three pillar structure indeed. Unfortunately, the new treaty does nothing to improve this uneasy position in between first and second pillar.
Now to your vision of the future of Europe, which I can deduce because of the topics you raise.
The support for “raising the retirement age” went up from 26% to 40%. And support for “making it attractive to work longer before retiring” went from 57% to 70%.
So, the EU will make us work until we drop. I know the reasoning behind it, and I do not believe a word of it.
Support for an EU role in energy supply increased from 52% to 59% and support for an EU role in diplomatic relations increased from 55% to 63%.
You want the EU to play a role on the world scene on energy that becomes scarcer and scarcer. This means you will have to be able and willing to wage war. And, more importantly, the other parties in the world must be convinced that the EU is willing to use force on a grand scale to defend its interests as a last resort. The EU cannot do that and does not want to do that either. This goes mutatis mutandis also for foreign policy. Until that time, please leave the foreign and energy policies to the member states. Not an ideal solution, I know. I only refer to the saddening NATO sharade in Noordwijk the other day.
The percentage agreeing that “additional countries that meet all the political and economic conditions for membership should be admitted to the EU” decreased from 65% to 60%. In the case of Turkey, support for EU admission if it met all the conditions fell from 55% to 45% and in the case of the Ukraine, it fell from 69% to 55%.
So, secretly, you want the EU not to grow any futher ?? Amazing to hear that from you, albeit indirectly. I agree, by the way. In fact I think we need an EU of only northwestern European countries including France. But that is too late now. An historic mistake.
Before deliberation, people from the ‘new’ member states answered 9 knowledge questions with an average level correct of 37%. After deliberation their average level correct was 53%. People from ‘old’ member states went from 40% to 56% correct). Topics included the EU budget, how members of the Parliament are elected, the role of the EU in unemployment benefits and how EU foreign aid compares with US foreign aid.
My comment is that these percentages are all very sad.
One more thing, Margot. Do you feel European or Swede ? Both is not possible, there are not two sovereignties. O yes, another and then I will stop. I compare the EU Commission always with a national government. It is high time the Commission would be elected from members of Parliament. But that is not in the treaties either. Thank you for your blog !
November 6th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
In response to remarks above the EU has problems with foreign policy with no clout to match. NATO is a tool of Pax Americana and has been used to recolonise Eastern Europe. Our elites talk about Soft Power because of the Nazi Stigma. Does it work on global despots? St. Margot of the Congo feels Anglo-Saxon - Gore, Honourary Irish Vikings, Black American Divas, Kennedy Awards, Albright, American Movies starring Jack Nicholson, English etc.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Nothing can be trusted of a man who says, “I am a supreme realist.”
Like all of us, Inferior (appropriate name, by the way), I’m sure you’re a mixture of realist, idealist, fantasist and downright wrong. The more modest of us have enough self-knowledge to recognise that fact.
(I predict that Inferior’s next comment will begin, “I am supremely modest.”)
November 6th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
The end of Europe’s division, the reconstitution of Central Europe, the end of Zionism, and the fading away of the post-WWII era makes way for German to re-emerge as one of the great trans-European languages by 2020. The ongoing democratisation of the European Union (meaning the growing involvement of the European public opinion in decision making processes) directly serves the importance of German, a language spoken by over 100 million « natives ». This treaty is important only that we will strengthen the Euro and confine the dollar to the annals of history!!
November 6th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Hello,
Your blog, while interesting, strikes me as incoherent. What has your sons’ parents’ evening (please take note of the proper grammatical form) got to do with the Treaty of Lisbon? Or Plan D? Precious little, I presume.
Kind regards,
November 6th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
When did you publish your blog’s 1st entry? What was its topic?
Thanks,
I.
PS why the math question at the end of the template?
November 6th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Cheering news from the Irish Times: “Just 25% of Irish citizens polled in a survey say they would vote Yes in a referendum on the new EU Reform Treaty”.
November 7th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Crapaud I do not share Herr Blonkers’ vision of a Fourth Reich and his antipathy towards Israel. BUT EU integration is manifest and England cannot stop it - the Democratic Deficits you lot loathe are minor blemishes. The bigger picture is a stronger union not an American colony. BTW Herr Brown is your problem. I also want England out - no more brakes to a stronger union. That is realism.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Dear Max,
Don’t cheer too loudly. Last time the Irish voted no, they were told to vote again and again until they said yes. Further, they were threatened with turning all of eastern europe into a desert if they said no.
In the meantime, I can look on at various people telling me how their version of ‘democracy’ and democracy in europe is good for me, and that ‘it can’t be based upon democracy like westminster’.
Europe has no idea what freedom of democracy actually is, and their enforcement of it upon the european populace simply proves the point.
November 7th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Inferior said:-
“the Democratic Deficits you lot loathe are minor blemishes.”
Nothing sums up the crass drive and stupidity of the EU more than this statement. The ends justify the means, every hurdle is merely a blemish. Just ignore it.
November 7th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Anon at least in the EU the Irish are permitted to vote for prosperity. The English Democrats denied Irish Catholics the vote for 800 years until violence errupted. Today Serfs in England are used to retain a New Aristocrary of hardcore NuLabour Marxists in power. More Serfs are being imported. Where is your referedum then? The EU cannot tell Sweatie McPuff to give you one.
November 7th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Inferior, if you want ‘England out’, then all you need do is support calls for national referenda on the new treaty. The UK alone will vote against and everyone else will be so upset that they will throw us out.
Of course, given the chance, some other countries might also vote against - like Ireland, France and the Netherlands once did, and like Sweden and Denmark would given a free vote. Additionally, would the taxpayers of Germany, The Netherlands and Sweden be happy to fill the billions of euros shortfall once UK contributions cease?
As for EU integration being ‘manifest’, with expansion and new members likely (BBC reports today: ‘The EU expects all western Balkan countries by the end of 2008 to have signed initial deals paving the way for eventual entry into the 27-member bloc.Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn said Albania, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Croatia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Serbia were on course to fulfil all EU conditions.’) you are either a dreamer or sleep-walking to long-term disaster.
November 7th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Max - but only 13% said they would vote No.
):
You might be interested in this Irish blog (which, to show my neutrality, is a No voting one
http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/apathy-on-eu-constitution-among-voters-and-tds/
November 7th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Max, Marcel is not the best gauge of Dutch public opinion. Rotterdam would melt without the EU - German Industries. The Dutch, Swedes and Irish need the EU more than it needs them - a fussy lot. Better Croatia and Serbia than Turkey and Albania. Bosnia has one problem - Arab Jihadi fighters from the War who are now citizens and took local Fair Maidens.
November 7th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Dear Moderator - Bah! Statistics!
Thanks for the Link. As I recall, the Nice Treaty was rejected by the Irish because it didn’t preserve Irish neutrality. This was ‘corrected’ by obtaining a Declaration on Ireland’s policy of military neutrality (the Seville Declaration). Does the Irish electorate know that an EU army is once again on the books? (”Within the EU itself, we will have to move closer to establishing a common EU army” Angela Merkel, Bild, 23 March 2007).
November 7th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
“# Inferior Says in “”:
November 7th, 2007 at 3:15 pm”
“Anon at least in the EU the Irish are permitted to vote for prosperity.”
You mean in Ireland. And only because the EU and the pro EU believe they can get a yes.
The French and the Dutch were also given a vote, I guess their ‘No’ is one of the blemishes you so quickly like to shunt under your large carpet.
“The English Democrats denied Irish Catholics the vote for 800 years until violence errupted.”
The Catholic Church denied everyone rights to vote or indeed basic freedom long before this. So cherry picking one group from a time long before real democracy is supposed to give you credence? Real democracy has only existed in the blink of an Eye, the so called ‘English Democrats’ you speak of have nothing to do with your crime of taking democracy today and suggesting that throwing it away is ok, and the problems with doing so are merely ‘blemishes’. What you should have said, is you object to an Elite aristrocrisy that held the population in servitude, slavery and certainly not democracy. But then if you had said that, you’d suddenly undermine the very theory of you supporting the EU.
“Today Serfs in England are used to retain a New Aristocrary of hardcore NuLabour Marxists in power.”
Even were we able to talk about this rationally, which we can’t given your nonsense above, The ’serf’s have a vote to remove Labour. The same cannot be said of the 400+ Million people you are all to happy to enslave. And even if we were to agree on the nature of it, which is actually worse, 60 Million enslaved, or 400 + Million, and which is it you favour, oh yes, the enslavement of 400 million people.
“More Serfs are being imported.”
That is certainly true, but to what extent one would have to establish the facts. There is no faster way to destroy England than the current policy. And they are policy. 500,000 Poles living in the UK are not going to support anti EU measures. Nor will hundreds of thousands, nay, Millions of others who need cash handouts from socialists or labour. And long term application of the policy eliminates one of the greatest hurdles to European slavery. Eliminate the English by policy, and you can enslave Europe. Horribly Political, and Politically incorrect too, but then you support the enslavement of 400+ million, and you care little about how it happens either. So you already know that.
“Where is your referedum then? The EU cannot tell Sweatie McPuff to give you one.”
Maybe you missed it, but this had to be agreed by everyone. When it was not, they just changed the rules. When will you gain a comprehension of what is occurring? Even if we were to have one, a creative method would be found of it being yes, vote again until its yes, or vote yes, or eastern europe gets it, or vote yes, insert threat, lie, deceit as needed.
The one thing the EU is not, is stupid. It knows what is down the line, which is why its making sure steps are happening every single day to deal with trouble makers. In Italy bloggers are being silenced. In Germany since Nov 1, want a passport, have your finger prints taken. In the UK the children are having DNA and fingerprinting done in school without notification or permission of the parents, and the EU is now gathering citizen data on internal flights to be held for 13 years, while lambasting the UK for not doing enough against terrorism.
Where now are your fabled Human rights? If the US silenced bloggers, stole DNA and finger printing without permission, and denied citizens the rights to travel, or indeed helpd flight data on citizens, the ‘Social Democrat circus’ and media in Europe has a field day. When they do it for their own benefit we get silence.
Terrorism is unpleasant, but the states that make up the EU and the EU itself is arming itself with a full and complete array of state machinery which it will turn on its people now, and down the line. Terrorism is the perfect excuse, and technology is the perfect executive.
And all of Europe should be handed over to a parliament lamentably bad compared to the UK system claim you, just a few blemishes, and a bunch of unelected ‘Elite’s’ who have more interest in furthering their agenda than any laudable public service aim, which being in league at the same time with every step taken to break rules, breach referendums, and ignore public opinion, while throwing Journalists and Accountants in prison or out of their job should they get in the way. Self serving? You bet.
In some European states, this nonsense and stupidity is regretably the standard fare. Which is why its just another day in Europe. But future for Europe? This is no future.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Anon the UK you describe seems very Stalinist. The EU did not put up all the CCTV cameras in England nor does it use the stigma of racism to control people like NuLabour Marxists in the UK. Only Serfs can vote such a party that is replacing them with New Serfs thrice. The Non-Serfs are fleeing to the Undemocratic Continent to live among 400 million slaves then? Try changing your name to Abdul and getting a visa to the Democratic USA. VA I presume?
December 4th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Margo, how can there be a Tomorrow’s Europe for workers - when you won’t deal with Trade Union corruption, Today.
I’m speaking about the cover-up of corruption by Ireland’s biggest trade union and its president.
Margo, deal with this corruption. The ex Belfast Dockers are dying from asbestosis and other asbestos related diseases and can’t get compensation. They were ORDERED to discharge asbestos without protection to save the employers money.
Margo, why do you have a blog when you won’t answer questions…?
February 1st, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Dear Margot, I am a Spanish citizen and I plead your public attention to the illegal hotel in “El Algarroboico”, in southern Carboneras village, in Almeria, south Spain. As you probably know (all the docuements are public and published in Spanish B.O.E. official publishing from Spanish Goverment, the plot in which the hotel is being built is protected (belongs to Cabo de Gata Natural Park). It is non-compatible with new developments. Please, I would like European Union to do something with this question as Spanish Goverment is doing nothing. The hotel is paralyzed but our goverment says nothing about its future. Andalusian Goverment intentends now to change the land demarcation (P.O.T.A.) against the European Community laws, (92/43/CEE rel. Habitats).
I pled European Community to solve this, because Euroepan Community is there for something, isnt it? We would love urbanistic corruption to stop in Spain. Thank you very much for your time.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:50 am
We would like to request your help in saving Cape Cope Regional Park, located on the pristine, Mediterranean coastline of Southeastern Spain. The task at hand is the prevention of an impending ecological disaster if Murcia’s regional government allows protections to be lifted and encourages construction within this natural space The judicial authorities in Spain are studying the modification of the regional law, which permitted the declassification of the protected area of the Regional Park.
An amendment made by the Murcian government has left without protection various natural spaces in the Murcian region, entailing the destruction of 10,000 hectares (24,700 acres).
The very Government intends to facilitate development in a good part of the natural spaces in the Murcian region until now protected by the Law of Territorial Classification and Protection in the Region of Murcia passed in 1992. Cape Cope and Puntas de Calnegre Regional Park is one of those spaces affected, losing protection of 64 percent of its territory, some 1,600 hectares (4,000 acres), with the shady interest of the Regional Government in building a large tourist complex. What is worse is that of these 1,600 ha, 700 ha are habitats named Places of Communitary Interest.
The situation hinges upon the pronouncement of the Spanish Constitutional Tribunal as well as social pressure that could bring the government to reverse its direction. Taking steps backward in the protection of natural spaces cannot be allowed in any civilized country.
The campaign is directed toward academic entities, collectives and the community at large in addition to involving our European friends in the drama of this park, since the destruction of the environment concerns everyone.
If your organization or institution wishes to support this campaign you can write to us by sending an e-mail to the Green Office at the University of Murcia: ofiverde@um.es
October 7th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Margot, why do you have blog if you dont answer our queries?
Regards,
Vicente Celada Gonzalez